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as
torture, and neglecting "social" rights, like the rights to medical
care, to education, and to a job. Without denying the importance
of ~social" rights, ~ consider the criticism unjustified. A demand
that a government stop torturing political prisoners can be fulfilled
relatively simply. A demand that a government provide a job to
every citizen is meaningless without a reasonable plan of how such
a goal can be accomplished. The human rights movement cannot be
expected to develop such a plan or to unite on one.
Also, historical experience shows that a government that justifies
its curtailment of political rights by its overwhelming concern for
social rights usually ends up by denying all rights.
Finally, ~ consider the idea that people of the Third World
are somehow less appalled by torture or by government-sponsored
murder than citizens of developed nations to be rank racism.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
Gilbert White
We have heard a simple, eloquent portrayal of the life of a
scientist and his family and we have had a challenge of an extension
of our work in the broad reaLrn of human rights. Now, would any of
you care to comment on what has been said by way of analysis or
prescription?
I`iprn~n Bers
~ know it is late and ~ agree with most of the things which were
said today. ~ would like to make one observation concerning the
question raised by Bob Kates about two different kinds of human
.
rights, which ~ could call negative and positive rights. The right to
food, to a job, to medical care, and to education are positive rights.
The right not to be arbitrarily arrested, not to be tortured, not to
be exiled, not to be killed for one's opinions are negative rights. The
discussion about the positive and negative rights and their relative
importance occupied pages and pages in the socialist literature of the
nineteenth century.
As an old social democrat ~ would say an old Marxist, if the
word would not have been vulgarized-~ certainly recognize the im-
portance of positive rights. Yet ~ think there is a good reason why
the international human rights movement, of which our committee is
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an
a small part, concentrated on negative rights. It makes sense to tell a
government, "Stop torturing people." An order by the prime minister
or the president or whoever is in charge could make it happen.
It makes sense to tell a foreign ambassador that, "The American
scientific community is outraged that you keep Dr. X in jail. Let him
out and let him do his work." It requires no planning, no political
philosophy, and it can unite people with very different opinions.
It is quite a different matter to tell a foreign government, say to
a government of a developing country, "You really should give this
or that positive right to your people." If we make such a demand in
good faith, it must be accompanied by some plan for implementing
this right and by some indication of the cost and of who will pay it
and how it will be paicI.
These are important questions that have to be discussed, but ~
think it is rather unlikely that the Committee on Human Rights of
the National Academy of Sciences (or even Amnesty International)
will solve social problems that have bothered humanity and political
thinkers for centuries, and that the human rights movement will
unite on a proposed solution.
Therefore, ~ think that the basic emphasis on negative rights by
the international human rights movement is a reasonable thing. If we
want to do things beyond this and participate in organizing a social
democratic party in America, ~ will gladly discuss this later.
(Laughter)
Gilbert White
~ am not giving the pane] a chance to respond to that appeal
just yet.
(Laughter)
Preston Cloud, University of California, Santa Barbara
~ would not presume to add to the words of wisdom that have
already been spoken, but ~ have some questions that ~ would like to
address to Dr. Mohamed and Dr. Kates. ~ think it must be saying
something that Dr. Mohamed is a member of the faculty of the
University of Witwatersrand.
Gilbert White
At least he was when he left.
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a 1
Preston Cloud
Is there anyone in your capacity, for instance, at an Afrikaans
university? What ~ am getting at Is whether you would care to
enlighten us a little on the differences between the two white groups
in South Africa and what they stand for.
Then, Dr. Kates, ~ would ask, must we stand still for a doubling
of population?
Curia;] Mohamed
~ can answer very briefly that there ~ a major difference between
universities like Witwatersrand and Cape Town, on the one hand,
and universities like Stellenbosch and Rand Afrikaans, on the other
hand. At these latter universities, which are basically Afrikaner
institutions, they did not admit black students or black staff. Black
students are now accepted at postgraduate levels. But this does not
mean to say that universities like the University of Witwatersrand
are therefore totally enlightened.
~ am going to use what the minister of education said when a
law was introduced that the universities will not significantly deviate
from their present student numbers which came about when they
could not force the university to operate a quota system: "We will not
enforce the quota system, because these universities have undertaken
not to deviate significantly from the existing student numbers." This
means in which blacks will not exceed 10 percent of the student body,
when they do exceed 80 percent of the population.
Gilbert White
Do you have a quick response to his second question?
Robert hates
Yes. One way to prevent doubling of population is to stand still.
(Laughter)
Elizabeth Russell, Jackson Laboratory, Bar Harbor, Maine
~ would like to inquire of Dr. Mohamed whether it is still true,
as stated in our program, that you are speaking within the limits of
South African government restrictions?
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Ismai! Mohamed
~ wait try to answer very quickly. At the tune when ~ came
here, or before ~ came here, the restriction was placed on me not
to participate in various kinds of activities. ~ entertained every idea
to get back home, knowing, in fact, that there is a penalty of 10
years' imprisonment if ~ should call upon you to act in any kind of
way against apartheid. For example, ~ may not urge you to adopt
sanctions.
But ~ think the situation has moved to such an extent in South
Africa where those people very clearly want me to say we applaud
you for the sanctions that you implemented and we urge you to clo
even more. So, it is very clear that ~ have deviated from that initial
statement that ~ will not go beyond the restrictions imposed on me
by the South African government. More and more people are defying
those restrictions.
Gilbert White
But ~ think ~ may be privileged to add, Professor Mohamed, that
you say this without knowing where you will be next. Yes?
IsmaB Mohamed
I do not think it would be wise on my part, really, to speculate
on the consequences and where ~ would be next at this time. Time
will tell.
Edward Anders, University of Chicago
Your institution, the University of Witwatersrand, has a very
strong and impressive statement on its letterhead saying that it does
not discriminate on the grounds of race. In the light of your reply to
Preston Cloud, it seems that perhaps this statement should not be
taken at face value. What would your advice be to those of us who
occasionally get invitations from the University of Witwatersrand?
Should we accept or reject them?
Ismai] Mohamed
~ think ~ have said to you that the statement ~ have quoted-
that ~ could not be appointed to a position of authority over white
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students and junior white lecturers-comes from the vice-chancellor
of the University of Witwatersrand. The statement that ~ could not
be appointed to teach certain courses, or ~ could only be appointed to
teach certain courses if the head of the department could determine
that nobody else with simular expertise was available also comes from
the head of the Department of Mathematics at the University of the
Witwatersrand.
It is true that the university has moved a long way from the
stance it had taken in the 1960~. But ~ think it has not moved in step
with the changes that blacks fee! need to take place. ~ am therefore
urging people to bring pressure to bear on those institutions for
affirmative action programs.
My answer is very clear, you see. Unless the universities will
admit blacks into their governing bodies or be more positive about
admitting them as students and staff, ~ would urge people not to go
to such institutions.
Gilbert White
Friends, I think we could pursue this much further and I am
sorry to be obliged to close oh the discussion here. Please join me in
thanking Professor Mohamed and the panel.
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Representative terms from entire chapter:
human rights
