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71 first with the Pugwash meetings and then with a committee operated by the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and this academy during the 1960s and 1970s, in which we carried out a number of initiatives with the Soviets. . I think, for example, that even the negotiators on both sides would say that we were an important link in the chain that led to the SALT ~ agreements, as an example of our efforts. In this work, one has to deal with the people on the other side who have access to their governments or with people who are in the governments. Among this large number of Soviets that ~ have had to deal with, ~ have made many friends, despite the adherence that many of them have to government policy. On the other hand, there are other contacts that have been anything but a labor of love. ~ cannot help but remember times when, breaking bread with officials of the academy of sciences or with members of the Central Committee, that ~ was probably talking with the same people who aided in putting Yuri OrIov in the camps. This is not a very pleasant business, and when ~ come home from each trip, and ~ will go next month for my 50th trip to Moscow, ~ always think of what ~ forgot to say at the right time, whose case ~ did not bring up. So, it is a mixed bag and ~ do not wish to deny it, but it is a labor In which not only I, myself, but also many others in the academy, have put in an enormous effort. ~ think, while the results are not quantifiable and cannot be measured, we are all glad that we spent our time that way. So, I will stop there and hope that we can have this conversation with Yuri more extensively some other time. Thank you. COMMENTS Lipman Bere Ladies and gentlemen, it is late, and I will be very short. I essentially agree with most of what we have heard. In particular, I fully agree with OrIov that, in first approximation, and ~ would say even in second approximation, the struggle for nuclear disarmament and peace and the struggle for human rights are rather independent of each other. ~ want to mention briefly a few disagreements that ~ may have with all the speakers. ~ am somewhat less optimistic. I do not believe
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72 that the changes in Russia, which ~ consider very important, which ~ applaud and from which ~ expect great things, that these changes were brought about by the international scientific community. We could have helped a little, but ~ do not think that a superpower changes its basic policies as a result of pressure from abroad. ~ do not think that every meeting between a Soviet scientist and an American scientist (or a Soviet school child and an American school child) by itself lessens the danger of war because it gives the citizens of the two countries the opportunity of knowing each other. Knowing each other never prevented people from going to war. World War ~ started when all European countries except for Russia were democracies. They knew each other very well. Among the most cruel wars in the history of humanity were civil wars, where the warring sides knew each other very well, indeed. ~ do not believe that the interests of peace require that we pretend that things are better than they are and avoid public mention of unpleasant facts. After all, nuclear war is to be avoided not because the Soviet government, or ours, for that matter, consists of nice guys; it is to be avoided because it will certainly lead to the destruction of our civilization and may lead to the extinction of our species. We all share the hope that nuclear weapons will never or, more precisely, never again be used. This hope ~ based on fear of these weapons, a fear which we hope is shared by those who have the power of decision. The history of the past 40 years shows that a peace based on fear is not necessarily unstable. The main contribution scientists can make to the avoidance of war may be in explaining to their own governments and to their own people how well founded this fear of nuclear weapons is. In the United States, this must include a blunt criticism of the "Star Wars" project. One word about scientific exchanges. ~ think the time has come when we may insist that the Russians adhere to certain generally accepted rules of scientific intercourse. More precisely, we may de- mand that at international scientific conferences invited speakers be permitted to come, no matter whether the authorities like them or not. This is still not being done. At the last International Congress of Mathematicians in Berkeley, about half of the invited Soviet speakers showed up. In view of Gorbachev's enlightened and courageous policy it may be the right time to say that on this we really insist.