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73 Finally, ~ would like to express the gratitude and respect which we all fee! toward the small and courageous group of our Russian colleagues who started this fight for human rights and for openness many years ago, when success looked very, very far away. My friend, Valery Chalidze, a physicist and one of the founders of this movement, told me that at one time somebody there proposed a slogan, "Try to help even if you know that help is impossible." We are all in an elated mood because of what is happening in Russia, and what is happening in Argentina,~4 but let us not forget how many more people in other countries need our help, including countries where the United States should have leverage. Let us not ask whether we can help these people, let us not ask how cost effective it will be. Let us simply try to help. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS EYancis Low Let me ask members of the panel, first, if they would like to comment on what has been said. Yuri OrIov ~ have a question for Lipman. Do you think that, in general, to- talitarian societies that existed in the past and perhaps will continue to exist in the future are, as a type, impossible to change? Lipman Bers No. There was a theory that once a totalitarian let's say a communist government Is established, it is unchangeable. This was the credo of the neoconservatives. ~ never believed in it, and certainly do not believe it now after what we have seen happening in Russia. Within wan said before the adoption of the legislation exempting from prosecution those believed to have acted under orders from superior military officers.

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74 Yuri Oriov It ~ the first case in Soviet history, the first official announce- ment of this type of Ambassador KashIev in Vienna at the review conference. As a person who used to live in a society of the So- viet type, ~ can attest to the fact that this the of annn~,n`~.~m~nt. . . ~. . ~. ~ . . ~_ _ A. , ~_ ~ ~ namely, that the west did have an effect and influence on the Soviet release of political prisoners, is extremely humiliating for the Soviet government. ~ can bring forth other examples to prove my point, and I will do that, though not right now. But I think it is important to recognize it for what it is. Lipman Bere Oh, ~ did not doubt that this statement was humiliating and that it is important that the statement was made. The question, as understood it, was did the statement give a full explanation of what happened, and to this ~ answered no. Joe] Lebowitz, Rutgers University ~ would~ like to emphasize some of the points that were brought out and apply them to the practical. It seems to me there were two important points brought out here that we should take away with us. First, in connection with particularly the first speaker from Chile, how important it is to pressure our own government, in the case of Chile, because that is really where the influence lies, but we can hope to change. ~ think it is absolutely essential, and also in the case of South Africa. In the case of the Soviet Union, and to some extent, also, in the case of all places in the world where oppression takes places, members of this academy, their guests, and their colleagues are invited to go, as we have already heard. to conferences and many time t.h~v an tin conferences. T' :~ ~o _ V ~ or" Is very, very crucial, it seems to me, that if they do not go to such meetings in a particular country because of human rights abuses, that they should be very clear in expressing that. If they go anyway, it is even doubly important that they make sure that they do get in contact with the victims of human rights abuses.

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Even more specifically, what Professor Bers has said, we can demand from the Soviets to permit their scientists to come to con- ferences here. We certainly can demand, and should demand, that when we go to the Soviet Union and to other countries, that we may have contact with all scientists there. ~ think the committee over here, Dr. Stellar and Carol Carillon, could be very helpful to members of the academy in supplying them with information of whom to go to visit, and ~ very much hope that this is one of the consequences of this session. People will become aware of it, and if they know colleagues who are going to such places, they will take that into account. ~ should just mention one final thing, that as Professor Bers said, the situation ~ not all rosy. At the present time, there are many, many people in the Soviet Union, in particular well, there are many, many people in jails in South Africa and in jails in Chile, a terrible situation but ~ understand, even in the Soviet Union, some of the people who have been released from jail are on hunger strike in some of the intermediate centers, because it is still not settled what kinds of statements they must sign agreeing that they will behave. Also, very many long-time "refuseniks" are on hunger strikes because they are afraid that if they do not get permission to leave now, they may never get it. So, the situation is far from perfect, and we have a lot to do to improve it. Eliot Stellar May ~ just take advantage of Joel Lebowitz's comment and point out that the Committee on Human Rights does have information on dissidents and refuseniks in the Soviet Union for any of those of you who are planning to visit. Walter John, University of California, Santa Barbara ~ am addressing my friend, Lipman Bers. Lipman Bers took exception to some remarks made at the table, including suggestions, ~ believe, by Professor Orlov, so now ~ would like to take some exception to the position taken by Lipman Bers. It has to do with his judgment of the utility or absence of utility of openness or of mutual knowledge. Since he is a mathematician, perhaps ~ will put it imprecisely in mathematical terms. Certainly, openness is not a sufficient condition or mutual knowledge is not a sufficient condition for avoiding war.

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76 On the other hand, particularly in the specific present situation, where the main threat to peace is the confrontation between the two superpowers, ~ think increased mutual knowledge and an increased openness are, in the long run, at least a necessary condition for eventual disarmament and a long-term solution. ~ remember a position Niels Bohr took when ~ was a nostdoc in Copenhagen. He argued that the scientists, because they are . . . . . .. . an International community, a community that naturally, because of their common interests, transcends national boundaries, have an obligation and an opportunity to tee in the forefront of ~tahli~hin~ that openness which he felt was needed where scientists had special qualifications. [ipman Bere . O much more broadly, but ~ did not express myself clearly. Of course, openness is very important, and everything should be done to foster it. ~ was talking about something else; the code word used to be "quiet diplomacy." Two elderly gentlemen, both distinguished in their own country, meet, show to each other the pictures of their grandchildren, point out that in each country there are militarists. We have them and you have them, and reasonable people must support each other, and "Oh yes, Sakharov wasn't careful enough and you will not do him any good by making too much fuss about it." Nothing of this is made public and then people say, "Well, we established a relationship." ~ was referring to this attitude. ~ would not say a word against openness. E-An Zen, U.S. Geological Survey ~ would like to echo the comments of the two previous question- ers. ~ think it is incumbent upon us to maintain open channels of communication, however distasteful the political institution may be in a particular country. It is up to us to help our colleagues to keep , _ ,, things open because if we do not. we do not communicate' with t.h~m ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ . ~ we nurr totem, and we hurt ourselves. and we no against the habit rule of open science. If we communicate with them, we also could help to keep a channel of communication open for those who are repressed. Insist of all, let us not act in such a way that we appear sanctimonious. ~v _ ~

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77 Yuri Orion ~ would like to say, first of all, when you come into contact with Soviet official organizations, you are not having contact primarily with scientists, but rather with government officials. It is an illusion that you are having free communication with scientists; it is pure illusion. For example, when ~ was young and a young scientist was sent abroad, he had to agree, as a precondition for being allowed to go abroad, that he would fulfill what was essentially a spy mission. know that such problems also exist in the United States, but certainly not to the same degree. Certainly things have become a bit better in the Soviet Union as well. Nevertheless, ~ think it is important to remind you that when scientists are sent here, as a rule they represent very specific kinds of people and kinds of institutions. What ~ am saying is that contact should become more free. How do you define free contact if you invite a specific person and that person is not sent? That is not a free contact. Francis Low Professor Stellar is going to make a few final comments. Before he does, ~ think that we owe him a real vote of thanks for this wonderful afternoon, and also Carol Corillon and the staff who work with her.

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