discussing this more from the point of view of a paradigm shift. Had such a discussion occurred, it probably would have made the companies open the coffers. Exxon has spent close to $40 million to fill the coffers because they were so bare.
Ashok Dhingra, Dupont: If you look at the past ten years of market economy, globalization has driven some of the investors such as textile, steel, and smoke stack industries overseas. The result has been that the United States has concentrated more on a highly technological knowledge economy and has worked well in general with a few bumps here and there. If this happens in the area of research—if catalysis is better done in Holland, England, or Japan, and similar technologies make sense—then what is wrong if the multicultural and multinational companies move overseas?
Nancy Jackson, Sandia National Laboratories: Coming from a security-oriented national laboratory, the first thought that I have is that the United States does not want to remain vulnerable regarding some technologies. It does not want to be dependent on any more foreign sources than it already is. We are already very dependent on foreign sources for oil. We certainly don't want to lose any key technologies as well. This could be construed as a national security issue. Perhaps catalysis is not important enough to be part of that, but certainly some information and other technologies will be.
Ashok Dhingra: That sounds like a self-serving or survival game. Take carbon fiber, for example, upon which the Department of Defense is heavily dependent for security systems. Look at the big supplies in this country, and you can see that it was economically more sound to get carbon fiber from Japan. So this debate has gone on for a long time. Market forces gave the sign that Japan was the best supplier of carbon fiber.
Nancy Jackson: This is a political decision. What the government wants from internal sources versus external sources is a political question, not a technical or researchers' decision.
Ashok Dhingra: It's a market decision.
Nancy Jackson: The options are driven by the market, but which materials or technologies we are to rely on is the decision that needs to be made politically.
Henry Kohlbrand, Dow Chemical Company: I tend to agree with Nancy Jackson. There are two elements that we have to look at: the industrial component and the political context. They are not easy to mix. It is easy to say that we should look at the nationalistic responsibilities of American companies in assessing how we should deal with this. However, defining what an American company is, in today's world of multinational companies, is difficult. One could define an American company to be one that was founded in the United States and then expanded to other parts of the globe. Today, in the chemical industry, the largest companies are European companies such as Bayer, Badische Aniline Soda Fabrik Corporation, and Hoechst. Even though they have significant operations in the United States, they did not originate here. What is their responsibility to support the national interests of the United States? These industrial and political issues need to be addressed separately and then an attempt should be made to bring them together. This will not resolve itself.
Joseph Cecchi, University of New Mexico: Maybe we should explore how general this situation is. I am familiar with Sandia partnerships in microelectronics, and they have been quite strong. That is not to