Thomas Manuel, Council for Chemical Research, Inc.: I heard the question differently. The issue is if research is funded at universities at an increasing rate and if the workers are people who are getting their degrees so that they can come out of the university and do research somewhere else, then the research that industry was going to do in their own labs is now done in the university. If so, do you have a material balance? That's the old question of supply and demand of technical people. I have two observations: First, the postdoctorate pool is the surge tank on this in the short term. And second, if I recall, when Ned Heindel was ACS president, ACS did a big study of all this and found that everyone got a job somehow. What happens is that people who are in industry turn into salesmen. If they are not very successful, they become managers. And then finally they retire and work for nonprofits. So there are other avenues out of this great tank of people. In theory, it's a problem, and someday it may happen, but you have to ratchet up the ratios before this becomes very serious.

Andrew Kaldor, Exxon: Do you have any examples of the type of reductions that you are able to achieve through university interactions?

John Tao: I can't give you any specifics.

Joseph Gordon, IBM: You implied that you had a sort of sliding scale for ownership of intellectual property and the amount that you are willing to pay for it. Do you actually have a range? And what fraction of your extramural research is in the form of a gift? What fraction is through contracts in which you own everything?

John Tao: Let me put it this way. We have very few in gift form, and we have more on the contract side of it.

Todd La Porte, University of California, Berkeley: You have gone through quite a long experience yourself on this. Could you talk about the surprises you've had in this experience?

John Tao: Some of the problems are people issues. It has nothing to do with good science or good research. We had to deal with one case in which the communications broke down, and we finally realized what happened: There was going to be a publication, and it was a battle about whose name came first. But very rarely do we have difficult problems that cannot be solved once you get beyond the people problems.

Todd La Porte: I didn't mean just negative surprises.

John Tao: Yes, we have had good surprises. We had a project in which we were looking at specific interactions of gases in the electronic etching process. There was an unexpected result in that the addition of some CO2 gave a much better life to the tools. And there was an invention that no one expected. That is translating into dollars for us right now.

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